Better Data, Stronger Communities: Using Data to Build Resilience in a Changing Climate

At the 2026 Data Summit, Leanne Spaulding, Resilience and Data Lead at the Environmental Policy Innovation Center, moderated a conversation on how better data can support resilience, environmental risk management, and growth. She was joined by Emily Dhingra, Senior Project Manager for Climate Resilience and Adaptation at AECOM; Kathie Dello, Assistant Secretary for Resilience at the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality; and Paula Pagniez, former Executive Director of Climate Risk and Resilience at Howden.

Their conversation has been edited and produced as an episode of Data for the People!, a podcast from the Data Foundation.  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome back to Data for the People, a podcast from the Data Foundation. I'm your host, JB Wogan. Last month we hosted one of our flagship events, the 2026 Data Summit, which explored the value of public data as strategic infrastructure and included an afternoon program that looked specifically at how better data can help manage environmental risk. If you were able to attend, thank you. We loved seeing you. But for those of you who couldn't make it, we're sharing some of the greatest hits from the Data Summit. Our last episode focused on the role of philanthropy in supporting a better future for our shared data ecosystem. On this episode, you'll hear a conversation about how better data can support resilience, environmental risk management, and growth. Leanne Spaulding of the Environmental Policy Innovation Center served as the moderator. The panelists were Emily Dingra, a senior project manager for climate resilience and adaptation at ACOM, Kathy Dello, the Assistant Secretary for Resilience at the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality, and Paula Pennier, the Executive Director of Climate Risk and Resilience at Howden. If you're a fan of the show, help us reach new listeners by sharing this episode with friends who might like it too. If you're not yet a subscriber, please go ahead and click that subscribe button now. And if you're feeling really generous, leave us a rating and review. With that, I hope you enjoy the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

I'm really excited to be here today. We're going to look at when the information reaches people making decisions about resilience and hazard mitigation, particularly around infrastructure permitting, insurance, and investment. I'm joined by three experts who are working at this intersection from different perspectives. So I think it's going to be a really rich discussion. Welcome to the three of you. It's so great to have you here. We're going to dive into first how this information is showing up in your respective areas of resilience practice. Emily, I'd like to start with you if that's okay. When you're helping a client decide where and what to build in today's day and age, what environmental and risk data are you relying on and where are the gaps that create the most uncertainty?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Right. We do a lot of different projects where we're helping clients with planning and design, all sorts of infrastructure, civil engineering type projects. And so we're looking at data that is below the ground, so geotechnical information or groundwater data. We're looking at the risks that are above the ground. So I work a lot in flood resilience, looking at coastal riverine. We talked in the last panel about stormwater, some of those cloud burst events. And then you also might have to consider the air, so even air quality or wind speeds, depending on what kind of infrastructure you're building. So there's quite a lot of different sets of data that we need to incorporate, environmental ones. Some of the gaps that we have can be in the scale. So you might have data that say you're looking at a wind gauge, but it's kilometers away or even more, and trying to figure out how to interpret that for something that's nearby. Oregon modeling, I think in our keynote speaker, they're talking a little bit about taking some of those bigger scale models and trying to downscale them to be very local. And that's that's a data gap we have as well. And also the age of the data. So I think, like, oh, data initially I hear data from 2000, I think. Oh, it's not that long ago, but it's like a quarter century now. It's it's older. And as we see the climate changing and things accelerating, you know, data that's even five years old sometimes can feel a little outdated. So it's those are some of the big gaps that we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Great, thank you for that perspective. I'm gonna pivot us to a state perspective now with Cassie. North Carolina's flood resilience blueprint is building a statewide decision support tool, which is really exciting. Given the very different communities and risks you're working with, from fast-growing coastal communities facing complex flooding events to rural area rural areas experienced population loss to Mountain Towns still recovering from Hurricane Helene. How do you build a system that works across such different realities?

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Yeah, so North Carolina's flood resilience blueprint was an investment by the North Carolina General Assembly, the largest ever investment in resilience in 2021 following Hurricanes Matthew and Florence. An initial appropriation of $96 million, and then $20 million to build this decision support tool. And the legislation specifically says that this should be the backbone of state flood resilience planning in North Carolina. Obviously, Hurricane Helene was very devastating, but we also have these smaller-scale flooding events that affect every single community in North Carolina. There are 551 communities in North Carolina, and those are the incorporated ones, and then another 200 unincorporated. It is not the Raleigh's and the Charlotte's Raleigh Gocaynes, I have to say that. A good hurricane season for us. We need to give all of those communities the same shot at a resilient future that the expensive, well-resourced communities have. We need the data, we need the flood maps, we also need money for implementation. We heard this on the last panel. And we need to take all the data that we have on other sources, on critical infrastructure, on how much avoided losses we'll get if we implement this resilience measure and bring it into one place. These are low capacity communities, and I'm not saying that in a derogatory way. These folks maybe have one emergency manager who's also hanging the Christmas lights and doing absolutely everything that needs to be done in a community. I sometimes joke that if you have my location and you look at Find My Friends, you'll never think I'm missing because I am anywhere in North Carolina at any given time. So I maybe need to send out some alerts when I may be missing. But we are truly all over the state. But the flood resilience blueprint provides a level playing ground for all of these folks.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

Thanks for that perspective. It's really helpful. Staying with this question of how data shows up in practice, Paola, I'd like to bring it to you now. I am not a finance person by any means, but when I do talk to my finance friends about working in resilience, they always seem to say capital follows certainty. If I could sum it up in just a couple of words. So when state or local governments hand you a dependable hazard risk data or assessment, what door does that open for a community looking for investment?

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Okay, so thank you. And thanks everyone for this discussion and for the invitation to be here. So I come from the insurance and reinsurance sector that has been mentioned before. I'm glad that we're making it to more events during that view because we're not the typical stakeholders sitting at the table. But we do believe that we have an important role to play, especially as we're addressing resilience, because we do use a lot of data. And but we use it in a different manner. So we don't necessarily build only on the data that state and local governments may be using or accessing. We also leverage the sources that our industry uses because it's not about certainty, it's about probabilities. We work on the probabilities of an event happening, therefore, data is key to understand those probabilities. Now, something that our industry is looking into, and where we have a lot of work to do, and this is what with my team we've been focusing as of the last three years, is not only working with the historical data that the insurance and reinsurance industry work with, but it's also looking at the climate data and climate conditioning the models, so that then we can marry those outputs, such as Ed was representing First Street before. It's the climate intelligence data. How can do we combine it with the outputs from the regulated cut models that our industry has to use in order to build a more comprehensive view of risk? Because for us, everything is what's the view of risk of or of an asset or a person, a community, right? It's based on that that we build the solutions. So when working with states and local communities, our approach is more about how do you avoid the losses? How do we bring the traditional outputs of card models? How do we leverage climate data, climate intelligence data, in order to quantify what the reduction in losses will be if governments do implement all of those recommendations to build resilience? That is a way to enable capital from the insurance sector. It doesn't mean that it's going to necessarily translate into reduced insurance premiums if an asset owner or manager invests in resilience. That is the question we always get. But the other view of this is if you don't invest in resilience, your losses are only going to increase? Maybe. Therefore, if you invest in resilience, there's going to be a delta in the premium versus the cost of doing nothing and the investments. And it's from that angle that we're engaging with public sector and private sector, as it was mentioning before, that are seeing the impacts of the changes in climate risk to try to foster and channel, help channel that capital by quantifying the return on resilience investments with the tools and data that we use.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

So the US Chamber of Commerce has put out two reports on the ROI of investing in resilience. And in their most recent one that came out probably six months ago, I think they said for every $1 invested in resilience, there is $6 to $13 saved in post-disaster recovery dollars that they wouldn't otherwise have to spend. So there's a big ROI for making that investment. And what I'm hearing you say is they get that ROI, and then it doesn't hurt their opportunity to then probably negotiate insurance premiums.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Or at least try to and put the under pressure. Ask the sector to actually acknowledge these investments in resilience into their insurance programs. It's not about premiums necessarily. It's really about how do we leverage the tools of risk transfer and the capital behind it in order to protect the value creation from the investments in resilience?

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Probability, risk transfer. Got it. That was great. That was really helpful. Let's talk a little bit about like where the coordination breaks down. Emily, I'm gonna come back to you. When underlying hazard assumptions change mid-project, which happens even if you're a consultant helping develop proposals for projects for local governments, what actually happens to timelines, design, and budget? Can you give us a little behind-the-scenes peek at that?

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, it like you said, things things can change. You plan, you put together a proposal, you plan to do the work, and then surprises always come. So I was thinking of a project that we're working on right now on a beach town, and they have an outfall pipe, which is directing the stormwater, the rainwater that comes in the upland area, it goes under the beach and it's directed out into the ocean. So it's helping to drain away those floods that happen inland. But when they first designed and installed this outfall pipe, the beach was kind of in a different position. And since then the sands have shifted and the beach has filled in, which is nice if you're going to the beach, you have more sand, but it's bad for this outfall pipe because it's getting clogged with sand. So that means the rainwater can't flow down the pipe. So we've been working on a project to extend this outfall pipe a little bit further into the ocean. And we thought that we could use the analysis that was done previously. And so we went back and looked at that and we found that they had used, you know, we're always using best available data. That's what we say. What you can get your hands on, what's most current at the best scale you can get. And there had been some wave data offshore that, like the gauge, I don't know, it wasn't reporting out or something. So they had data from 1980 to 1999. They did this design in like, I don't know, 2016 or 17 or something like that. So we come back and the gauge data is now available. We have 25 extra years of data that we can look at for the study. We're like, oh goodness, that kind of changes the picture. And they also had been working with an older FEMA study that had been based on modeling from the 80s. And then maybe like two years after they built this pipe, then FEMA came out with a new study, newer data, newer models, more reliable, best available, but it's shows that the still water, which is kind of like the storm surge inundation, is two or three feet higher. So you know, we thought this was gonna be a very simple project, just you know, do this little extension, and then we go in and see like all the data and information we have is updated, it's newer, it's different. And so, how do you manage that? Well, the in addition, the the community wants to have this design happen right now, get it constructed when it's not beach season, and you know, by March 15th next year, they say construction's gotta be done. And so, what we've tried to do, work with our clients, say, you know, okay, we can try and compress these schedules. We're gonna need to get a scope change, try and get a little bit more money for more analysis. You know, it's kind of a compromise of working with your clients and and the people around you to make sure that the thing that you're designing and that you're building is the best that it can be, that it considers. I mean, in this case, it's not exactly like a life safety issue, you know, but you want to make sure you're using the best data to make the the best product that you can. And so you just have to work with your client or the people you're working with to try and find a solution to move forward. It's a lot of compromise, but having the framework that you you want to make the best product that's gonna last the longest and provide the most benefit is really what we're all trying to work towards. So focusing on that.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

Thanks for that, Peek. I just think it's so important for folks to hear what it's like to have to navigate major engineering projects and design standards, et cetera, in this space. During a climate week DC Climate Week panel, Hannah Safford from Federation of American Scientists said the data we have is the data we have, right? And we bet back to your point about making the best decisions that we can with the data we have and needing to move forward considering the urgency. That was a really good, I think, cross-section of what it's like to have to operate and make some of those decisions and compromises. So thank you. Kathy, I'd love to bring it back to you and talk a little bit about permitting and the regulatory side. When local leaders bring an urgent resilience project to you, because I know they do a lot, you know, because North Carolina DEQ is in charge of per a lot of permitting. Where do poor or missing data points throw a wrench into an approval process?

SPEAKER_05 17:02

So I'll back it up a bit. We have a lot of things that we can learn from. Obviously, I talked about the three hurricanes that hit over the past decade, and each time the state evaluates and goes through lessons learned. Following Hurricane Helene, Governor Josh Stein took office in early 2025. Helene recovery is obviously one of his top priorities. He's on calls about Western North Carolina every single morning. But resilience is also another priority. And in my past life, I was the North Carolina state climatologist. This time last year, I was the North Carolina state climatologist. And I got a call asking if I wanted to come over to the Stein administration to lead the resilience efforts because one, they wanted data-centric decision making, but also we really needed to elevate resilience in state government to the assistant secretary level and take our lessons learned from the Florence's, the Matthews, the Helene's, and move forward. And there's a lot of talk about well, where should resilience live? And ultimately the administration said it should live in DEQ, which is a regulatory agency, but we are the environmental science agency for the state of North Carolina. And our charge is to make decisions that benefit the health and prosperity of all North Carolinians using science as a guide. So we have regulatory programs, and I actually oversee one of them directly, our coastal management program. North Carolina is governed under the Coastal Area Management Act. It's a very innovative coastal management legislation, piece of legislation that's 52 years old. It pertains to all 20 of our coastal counties, and we issue permits based on what we call CAMA land use plans. And I will say that we are now incorporating resilience into the CAMA land use plans, which get approved by our Coastal Resources Commission, so that when we are approving permits for resilience projects, we can then point to that land use plan which has it baked in already and maybe move the process ahead a little forward. The other thing I'll say is obviously we're permitting on stormwater and air quality and all sorts of other things as well. With resilience in DEQ, I know who to talk to when things come up, or we know how to help communities work through some of their issues. I'll point back to the coastal permits. We approve 3,000 coastal permits each year and we deny about five or six. So we always try to get to a place of yes with people, and sometimes it's a lot of 18 to 24 months of back and forth before we get to the yes. But we try to get there with everybody. We don't like denying permits, we don't like finding people despite what anyone says. And it has been, I think, a really nice kind of marriage between thinking ahead about resilience, thinking about long-term resilience, but also jumping over some of these hurdles that we have.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

That's awesome. I didn't realize that that was the model. I'm not sure if you all chose it necessarily that way, but fundamentally to get resilience projects implemented, which is what we really need to be doing, the science and the permitting are huge components of that. And so now they have in North Carolina, you have your resilience muscle embedded in the agency responsible for both. So would you say that like the permitting process is getting sped up because it's it's nested, it's nested with you resilience folks?

SPEAKER_05 20:26

We have a lot of permits and we have few staff. So Gotcha. I wouldn't say that it's speeding up because of resilience, but again, I know who to call if there's a hiccup.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

I think, yeah, and I'm sure that helps it along. Great. Well, Paula, we're gonna turn back to you. I'm gonna ask the flip side, essentially, of the first question. So when a community is working with missing and or unreliable hazard and risk data, where does that break down on the insurance investment side and what can't move forward?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

You mean data at the level of the community for the community or the insurance industry? For the community. Okay, two thoughts. One is that what we're working on a lot now, as mentioned before, is quantifying the reduction of losses because of investments in resilience to empower the communities with those numbers. Quantification is everything, especially when you want to make a case for capital allocation. Show me the money and the return on the money. So if a comp in a community is going to invest more on resilience, having that data becomes of the essence. I have a very personal thought about this, which is about what are the best ways to bring that data to the community. I think that even though most of us hear about climate and climate risks and climate change, the topic feels enormous. And just understanding how it impacts us as persons and as a community, it's it's challenging. And also, I I work with a colleague of mine who specializes in behavior and he's a behavioral economist. And I was saying we really need to get to that knee-jerk moment where it hits us so that we can understand how this is impacting our personal lives. And my personal belief is that we are not asking real estate platforms. To put that data out there, but actually having the data out there reaching us is what empowers us as individuals. Of course, industry, real estate, the mortgage industry behind that is then allowing for that information to trickle down to impact consumer behavior. And communities are a group of consumers. So by mobilizing consumption of this data in ways that then further foster our resilience and resilient behavior, I think it's really the way to empower it. Then on the side of insurance, really having access to this data is of the essence. We didn't touch before on a topic that closely relates to what you were mentioning, which is parametric insurance, especially as we're dealing with an increasing insurability crisis. And it was mentioned before, premiums on insurance, right? And as we quantify the impact of evolving climate risks, we are seeing changing dynamics in the insurance market that are impacting the insurability, the access to insurance. Either that it's available but becoming too expensive or not available. And I want to emphasize the role of insurance as a societal public good. An insurance premium is reflecting the amount of risk. So if I live in a house that has increasing insurance premiums, that tells me something. It's talking about the risks that my asset is confronting. It talks about the exposure and vulnerability of my asset in the same way that if we think of our health and if we smoke and not exercise and drink alcohol every day as much as that might be nice, but it's not gonna talk well to your health insurer. But the same is for assets, for real assets, right? So it's very interesting to then observe the behaviors of the insurance markets. Sometimes it's giving signals that should start or could start influencing the lending market. And therefore, how to use that as a signal for us as consumers to think, as a community to think. If areas are becoming uninsurable beyond the market, the capital dynamics that influence these markets, there's always a technical premium-informing insurance. And those rate movements reflect the outputs of the data that we analyze.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Thanks, Paula. To keep us moving along and make sure we're on time, I'm gonna take us to some of our last questions, which are gonna be an all-skate. So that means you all can jump in and answer fun times. The first is what's something about how data shapes your work that would surprise the people in the room? The thing most outsiders get wrong or don't see.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I was gonna say I was thinking about this question a little bit and I came up with an answer, but maybe it's not that surprising to people. I think it's that you you hear the word data and you think like it's very solid and that it's very knowable. But when we're doing our work anyway, we apply what we like to call engineering judgment. And so there's there's kind of a human factor to interpreting the data and applying it. And I was thinking, oh, maybe everybody just assumes when you hear data that it's very clear what you do with it. But listening to the conversations today, maybe that's not very surprising. Maybe most people here would say, yes, when I work with data, I have to apply some judgment. So it's it's a cooperative application of you know the people and the data. And I'm very interested to start thinking about how we bring AI into that conversation. It's kind of a third partner, I guess, the data and the human and the AI, but maybe that's next year's discussion.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

I will say that even those tiny communities are more sophisticated than people think. So we're at the phase post-disaster where really well-intentioned people want to come in and do convenings about climate risks. And I said we're not doing sticky notes on the wall because the town manager from this town has already called me and they want to move their wastewater treatment plan because they know this floods. They need the data for the projected 500-year flood. They want to get rid of that dam because it's causing flooding in their town. They've already moved town hall across the road and they're going to elevate the first floor. They have all the data. They know what they're looking for. And I think sometimes we start over with people thinking we need to start from step one when they're already on step six, seven, or eight, and we just need to dive in a little bit deeper with them.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

And on my end, I I will bring up the case of parametric insurance as we deal with weather risk, turned climate risks, and traditional insurance solutions are not really always fulfilling the type of protections that we expect from our insurance covers. Parametric insurance has grown as a type of insurance that complements indemnity, that is available regardless of the jurisdiction. It's based on data, it's based on data that needs to be transparent and independent. And therefore, we can bring protections to the public sector, from municipal governments, to countries, to sovereign risk pools, as well as corporates, in order to help manage their exposure to these risks. But we wouldn't be able to develop these policies that don't take climate adjustments. If a certain intensity of an event material, a climate event or weather event materializes, these policies pay. So they're a source of fast liquidity to respond to disasters. But without that open public data, we wouldn't be able to design and to implement these products. So it's a growing area of expertise, has been around for a bit more than 20 years. It's becoming more and more relevant, but building on the data that we generate, especially out of NOAA, this is of the essence to allow this practice to continue.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

I find parametric insurance to be fascinating, but I have I have a hard time understanding it. And Cathy, your your comment about no sticky notes may made me remember that a lot of communities are experiencing engagement fatigue. It's a real thing. And I'm sure that's part of it.

SPEAKER_05 29:12

Absolutely. And they are actively managing their own family post-disaster too and their own well-being. So we're trying to do a little bit of air traffic control on some of these things. And one of the things we are doing with our resilient coastal communities program, which is the other side of the state, obviously, is trying to meet people where they are. We set up at the Art Walk in Elizabeth City or at the Pig Picken in Newport and try to engage with folks there rather than throwing another resilience meeting on the calendar.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Yeah. Well, why don't we pause there and see if the audience has any questions for us?

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Thanks. I'm curious from the insurance perspective, if you're looking at the impacts that climate and environmental hazards have not only on property and assets, but also on health and how that impacts the in premiums and the work that you do.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

I'm going to provide a very diplomatic answer, which is that it's a growing area where we're putting efforts to understand the impacts. We are very much developing our thinking around it based on academic literature. I have not yet seen a change in underwriting on health insurance based on it. We're certainly raising the flag about it having to be incorporated. For example, working with corporations that have workers on the field working full-day jobs under the sun, right? Unprotected and without breaks. Or working in warehouses where the heat conditions are worse than what we used to contemplate, right? So I'm not seeing the changes in the types of protections yet, but we are certainly looking into this data, and I think some teams we are acknowledging the issue.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

Well, if there are no other questions, I have one more to close us out, and that's what's one change in funding, sharing, or standards that would most accelerate better data becoming the norm.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

I want to give a shout out to something I think is working well, and we talked a lot in the last panel and this one, I guess, about NOAA data. But one site I really love is the digital coast. I do a lot of coastal work, and NOAA's bringing together all sorts of data. Like you can just click the data button, get to the data if you care the data. Um, and they're they have NOAA data, but they have links to you know other sources. They're kind of like a oh clearinghouse for anything about the coast that you need to know. But they don't just have the data to the previous discussion, they also have something, a link says stories, and you can see who's using the data, how they're using it, get those ideas. They have tools, they have like a couple other things to help you engage with the data if you're not just a data person. So that's I'd love to see more kind of topical clearing houses that anything on coastal or you know, whatever your topic is, you can get to probably a government site and get that, you know, all the data in one place.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Working in North Carolina is really fun and really cool. It's a beautiful state. We are laser focused on the 11 million people that we serve. And we need more funding for implementation. And this doesn't necessarily get right to your data piece, but we have these river basin action strategists as a part of our flood resiliency blueprint, and they're extension agents for flood resilience in these basins. And we have right now one per basin in the six basins we're working in. And these folks are known by their communities, they help them walk through the decision support tool. It's not a magic eight ball. There is more expertise often needed. I would fund more of those people to help us get from data to implementation to help then foster resilience. So we have a lot of good the good data pieces in place. We need more money for implementation, and we have so many competing priorities. Budgets are really tight, and I know the one in $13 thing because I throw it out as well, but it our our budget's tight in North Carolina, and we have to prioritize. So having those middle people prioritize the big investments in the basins, the biggest bang for the buck is what I would fund.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

I want to give it a twist. Which is that if you are investing in data, if your organization is investing in data to understand the impact of climate risk, environmental risk, or others, do ask your insurance representatives, brokers, and then the writers that they incorporate this view of risk, this information that you're managing to make your investments or disinvestments into your into your risk transfer programs and risk management programs.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Okay, I think that's all we actually have time for. So I'm gonna wind down the panel and thank you all for your time and expertise today. This was a really great discussion. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

They spoke at our 2026 Data Summit. If you would like to learn more about the Data Summit, we have a blog summarizing the full program and an event page with video recordings of presentations and panel sessions. As I mentioned at the top, we'll be featuring some of those here on the podcast as well. Our next big event is GovDataX on September 15th at George Washington University. A link to learn more and register is also in our show notes. A big thanks to Lisa Leh, our 2026 Summer Digital Communications intern at the Data Foundation, who produced the audio for this episode and is writing the blog summaries of episodes stemming from our Data Summit. If you liked this episode, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you're feeling really generous, leave us a rating and review. To learn more about the Data Foundation, go to datafoundation.org.